Once Upon a Time General Discussion Thread

[Outlast]

Found a new relationship chart. Everybody is related.
http://woodelf68.tumblr.com/image/142156279809

Interesting but I didn't see Hook.

He's there. Right between Emma and Milah.

At the risk of being shushed by Outtie, the Prankster will venture his semi-informed opinion on the Rumbelle story line.   The story line has devolved into a nine word summary:  Rumple deceives Belle, Belle finds out, Belle shuns Rumple.  Emilie de Ravin is an accomplished actor and deserves better than the shorter and shorter end of the writers’ stick.  Either write Belle out of the show in some creative way or put some meat on the bones of Belle’s character and the Rumbelle story line.  Perhaps Belle’s pregnancy is a harbinger of better things to come for her.

No need to shush I'm pretty much on board with all of that. The writers have been going in circles with Rumbelle and as I've said I don't think either character has been consistent since season four, especially Belle who's constant flipping back in and out of love with Rumple felt schizophrenic rather than conflicted emotions (or whatever the heck they were going for with that). 

I just had a thought... I was listening to a podcast speculate about Hades being the father of Zelena's child (instead of Robin Hood) and it got me thinking, what if Hades is actually Zelena's father? If nothing else it would make sense of the conundrum of why she's was so powerful at birth.

MP had the same fleeting thought while writing “Here’s Donnie” but he dismissed it because Hades’ reaction to Zelena during the last episode seemed to be that of a paramour as opposed to a parent.  The Prankster supposes he could be wrong (highly unlikely) or is it possible Hades is unaware that Zelena is his daughter?

Well he is a greek god and they were known for their bad behavior so maybe knowing she's his daughter is part of the allure? But ABC would never do a sick twisted thing like that would they? *sub in some cleverly snarky remark about Robin/Regina/Marion/Zelena or Hook/Neal/Emma/Milah*


I thought this episode (Our Decay) was pretty good despite the ridicules scarecrow. For some reason I really liked that wicked bicycle ride.
"It's like a broom with wheels!"

On Rumbelle
YOU GO RUMPLE!!! I like seeing him stand up for himself to Belle after the way the last couple of seasons have gone. I do agree that she fell in love with all of him and not just the coward behind the beast (as evidenced by her quick rejection of him once he actually reverted back to basic 5a). I'm not sure how I feel about him being (and wanting to be) the Dark One forever. I know that's what the writer's want for their writery purposes, but I always hoped that the series would end with Rumple destroying the darkness and living happily ever after with Belle. Despite his statement that he loves the power, I still kind of hope for that ending.

As for Belle in the episode... I don't really have a problem. She was nether particularly stupid nor unreasonable in any of her actions tonight. Though I continue to believe Zelena should have some rights to see, hold and feed her nameless (*cough* Pomegranate *cough*) daughter. I was a little disappointed that it still seems that Robin is the father. It would've been nice to have at least some of the eww taken out of that storyline.

The love story between Zelena and Hades was sort of cute if a trifle abrupt and one sided (Hades seemed so much more into this than Zelena; who in a very Rumple fashion declared that no one could ever love her). I liked Dorothy and it was nice to see the munchkins. The only glaring problem I see with the episode on my first watch is that CGI scarecrow. Why did they do it that way? Just pick an actor toss a burlap sack over his head and glue some straw to him and I would think the effect would be both better and cheaper.

[LindaM]

I guess we can assume that Zelena is Persphone.  Boy Hades is one obsessed male.  He not only created Storybrooke for Zelena but brought the heroes down so she could destroy them.  And I loved the comment (paraphrased of course):  I'm not the devil. I'm Hades, a god of Olympus. My brother put me down here and made me so I can't experience human emotions, yada yada yada."  Loved this whole take on it.

Okay -- here's a few things I'm wondering about.  The team is more than ready to return to real Storybrooke.  Now we know there are headstones that Hades has created for Snow, Emma, and Regina.  My question is this:  Does it really affect the living or is it assumed and played upon by Hades.  They aren't dead.  His domain is the dead. 

And there is a continuity error.  If Snow is dead then Charming has to be dead.  They share a heart and it was established back in season 3 if something happens to Snow and she dies so does Charming.  Thus if she has a tombstone, so should he.

Lastly, I'm seeing Zelena beginning to understand family.  Will she be incorporated into the Charming clan?  (Of course she will!).  Rumple has been and now Rumple wants them all out.  We still haven't seen Zeus and I believe they have cast the character.

And one new rumor says that a special guest star appears on the season finale with a chance to continue next season.
Go
Down
For
Who!

It's M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E!  According to something I saw last night, the network hopes that it helps the ratings and maybe allow for a spin off.

[Merry Prankster]

IMHO this episode was the weakest of 5B but it was okay because the Prankster is a sucker for munchkins.  Did Zelena really have to reduce one of them to chimney litter?  The Lollypop Guild should go on strike.

Criticisms:  Hades falling in love in two nanoseconds, the pathetic scarecrow (perhaps he was having a bad straw day) and Zelena’s nonstop speed-waffling over custody of Pomegranate (great name, Outtie).  Overall, the two main storylines felt “rushed” and therefore strained credibility.

Best Scene:  Rumbelle.  Bravo Rumple!  He finally “manned up” and put Belle to the decision instead of becoming the Dark Wimp.  Now Belle has to decide whether she is willing to accept a life of influencing the Dark One to become a lighter shade of gray.  She could do worse.  At least the story line is not the same old, same old.

 Hades:  Take Hades for a bike ride and he’ll be eating out of your hand.  Zelena must have been wowed by Hades’ gift of the slum-like version of Storybrooke.  Hades is a bit of a putz when it comes to romance but most men are.  The Prankster believes Hades has or will set his sights on the soon-to-be Baby Rumbelle for one of the ingredients needed for the TTP (time travel portal).   Rumple knows Hades never had any intention of letting him out of the contract.  Maybe Rumple will get the chance to play hero.  Like LindaM, the Prankster likes Hades’ backstory and resulting motivation.

Henry:  So Henry is sleep-writing OUAT?  The OUAT writers might have used that technique to write this episode.  The Prankster senses trouble a-brewin’ on this front.  At the very least, Cruella should return to make mischief.

Tombstones:  The Prankster believes the tombstones have somehow “trapped” Regina, Emma and Snow in the Underworld without killing them.  Regina used the word “trapped” in describing the tombstones’ effect.

The Prankster needs the assistance of Outtie/LindaM:  Can either of you help the Prankster’s faulty  memory by providing the list of ingredients needed for the TTP?  The TTP has to play a significant role in the going-forward story line.  Thanks in advance.

Another question—The clock ticked towards the end of the episode, meaning that someone passed on from the Underworld.  Any significance to this?

[Outlast]

MP The ingredients Zelena used for her time portal in 3b were an innocent baby (Prince Neal), a brain (spun out of gold representing Rumple brain), courage (Charming's broken sword) and a resilient heart (Regina's). And by the way the baby wasn't hurt at all by the spell. Whether that's just what the spell does or because they rescued him before the portal actually opened... Who can say.

So Hades has everything he needs conveniently already at hand in the underworld.

What do you suppose he wants to change? Zelena wanted to kill Snow's mom before she could interfere in Cora's engagement to Leopold (later to be Snow's father). Maybe Hades just wants to go back and redo that romantic bike ride through Oz with Zelena. 

[Merry Prankster]

Thanks Outtie.  MP will try to return the favor by addressing your question.  The Prankster is a bit fuzzy on this but he believes he has the "gist" of it.

Hades does not want to be God of the Underworld.  He believes Zeus tricked him, apparently at the time when the three sons of Kronos divvied up the earth, the sea, and the underworld.  So he wants to return to that time and take the place of Zeus.  Whether he wants to kill Zeus is unclear to the Prankster.

Regarding the bike ride (LOL), the Prankster believes Hades would use the TTP to take Zelena back to the most recent Tour de France.

[LindaM]

Well, I'd be upset if I had ended up in daddy's stomach and little brother saved me!  See below (and yes, Zeus has been cast).

Zeus is the child of Cronus and Rhea, the youngest of his siblings to be born, though sometimes reckoned the eldest as the others required disgorging from Cronus's stomach.

Plus we get the following:

He was respected as an allfather who was chief of the gods[9] and assigned the others to their roles:[10] "Even the gods who are not his natural children address him as Father, and all the gods rise in his presence."[11][12] He was equated with many foreign weather gods, permitting Pausanias to observe "That Zeus is king in heaven is a saying common to all men".[13] His symbols are the thunderbolt, eagle, bull, and oak.

Now, I never read where Zeus made Hades act the way he did.  I have a Greek mythology that I haven't read and so I'm relying on Wiki.  Here's the division:

After the battle with the Titans, Zeus shared the world with his elder brothers, Poseidon and Hades, by drawing lots: Zeus got the sky and air, Poseidon the waters, and Hades the world of the dead (the underworld). The ancient Earth, Gaia, could not be claimed; she was left to all three, each according to their capabilities, which explains why Poseidon was the "earth-shaker" (the god of earthquakes) and Hades claimed the humans that died (see also Penthus).

I love wiki -- here's what it says about Hades.

In Greek mythology, Hades was regarded as the oldest son of Cronus and Rhea, although the last son regurgitated by his father.[n 1] He and his brothers Zeus and Poseidon defeated their father's generation of gods, the Titans, and claimed rulership over the cosmos. . . . Zeus received the sky, Poseidon received the seas, and Hades received the underworld,[25] the unseen realm to which the souls of the dead go upon leaving the world as well as any and all things beneath the earth. Some myths suggest that Hades was dissatisfied with his turnout, but had no choice and moved to his new realm.[26] The Underworld was Hades' eternal domain, meaning he would spend the majority of his time there

Regardless, they left Peresphone out and didn't deal with another situation that could be tricky.  I'm beginning to think Zeus sends the heroes back to their time and Hades follows.  This could be interesting.

[Merry Prankster]

Thanks LindaM.  The Prankster's knowledge of Greek Mythology is about as robust as The Donald's knowledge of........anything other than Eastern European supermodels.

[Outlast]

So I guess Belle was the one responsible for the ogres attacking her kingdom in the first place? But come on we all saw her being to one to 'river' Gaston. is there a character in Once who has messed up more stuff than Belle?

Decent episode though. Enjoyed all Belle flashbacks and the current underworld stuff between her and Rumple was a mess, but typical of them.

Hades hates hope and flowers. Got it.

The rest of it with Emma's dream and all seemed very pointless. Was all that time really to set up Red appearing?

[LindaM]

I"m not sure what to make of Emma's dream.  I figured foreshadowing.  And the Zelena stuff with the flower was pointless.  He could have showed his love another way -- like finding the baby.

Poor Belle.  Now she's committed murder.  I think Gaston was responsible for the ogre's attack.  Also, they had no choice but to send him to the river.  His "moving on" was really something inside himself which he wouldn't acknowledge or accept.

[Merry Prankster]

The Prankster’s reaction to this episode was similar to Outtie’s---half good (Rumple, Belle, Gaston), half filler (Emma’s “I have a dream”).

Hades’ scheme to rid the Underworld of fledgling hope was fairly clever.  MP thought Belle’s return of the dagger to Rumple was significant.  He applauds Belle’s throwing Gaston into the river.  She acted to protect Rumple and Gaston was already dead anyway and was going to pass on only if he put Rumple into the river.  Given the circumstances, the Prankster views Belle’s act as more akin to a venal sin than a violation of the Ten Commandments and a positive for Belle’s character development.  It’s about time for her to hop down from her goody two-shoes, self-righteous pedestal and join the rest of humanity.  (Belle never did turn the mirror upon the ogre, did she?).  Rumple had the best shtick of the episode when he talked about whether a given action is good or evil often depends upon one’s perspective.  This moral ambiguity/relativity lies at the heart of OUAT when it is at its best.
 
OUAT should have dealt with Red’s return in about five minutes and substituted a Zelena storyline.  Zelena’s character development has reached a stage where a comparison and contrast with Belle might prove interesting.

Zelena’s appreciation of the dead flower was a bit of a head-scratcher.  Maybe she even likes slum-like Storybrooke.  MP does not understand women in the real world so his befuddlement over Zelena is easily explained.

Speaking of Red, MP needs the assistance of the OUAT experts.  Did Red die in a previous season?  If yes, how?  If not, under what circumstances did she leave the show?
 
This brings the Prankster to his primary criticism of OUAT.  5B is starting to show the same cracks that have driven MP away in the past, the uneven quality of storytelling between and within episodes.  At times OUAT is creative and inspired, at other times the writers put OUAT in the backseat of Thelma and Louise’s car.  5B has been so strong overall MP will stick with it and hope the quality returns to that of the earlier episodes.

The Prankster has a somewhat educated guess regarding the premise of 6A but he could be completely wrong:  What would the world of OUAT be like if Regina had never placed the curse that resulted in the Storybrooke of Season One?  Would Storybrooke even exist?

Note to LindaM—the Prankster noticed Rumple handling Pan’s pipes while he appeared to be musing over something.  Your earlier comment might be on the mark.
 

[LindaM]

The Prankster’s reaction to this episode was similar to Outtie’s---half good (Rumple, Belle, Gaston), half filler (Emma’s “I have a dream”).

It wasn't the strongest episode of 5b but a lot better than 2b which puts me to sleep.

Hades’ scheme to rid the Underworld of fledgling hope was fairly clever.  MP thought Belle’s return of the dagger to Rumple was significant.  He applauds Belle’s throwing Gaston into the river.  She acted to protect Rumple and Gaston was already dead anyway and was going to pass on only if he put Rumple into the river.

I don't think she gave Rumple the dagger.  I think she's still in control.  My issue with this was how did she find the blooming thing in the firs place.  And you never made a deal with the devil (or in this case Hades). He never keeps it!

Given the circumstances, the Prankster views Belle’s act as more akin to a venal sin than a violation of the Ten Commandments and a positive for Belle’s character development.  It’s about time for her to hop down from her goody two-shoes, self-righteous pedestal and join the rest of humanity.

Yeah, I know 10 Commandments but I also was brought up on the Christian principle of Free Will.  She acted with Free Will to protect another so yes, she's changing but I never really saw her a goody-two-shoes either.  She just wanted Rumple to do what was right.  She doesn't understand his right may be wrong at times and let's be honest, he's no where as evil as the other Dark Ones.

OUAT should have dealt with Red’s return in about five minutes and substituted a Zelena storyline.  Zelena’s character development has reached a stage where a comparison and contrast with Belle might prove interesting.

I see this as Red returning to the family.  They had paired her up with Mulan but I think they're bringing her back on to OUAT next year.  I think her show got cancelled.  Red isn't a bad character but she's been MIA so long that we don't connect with her.  Zelena on the other hand is going to come into play.  Didn't you catch that she traps Dorothy in the necklace so it's a combined story with more character development.  Regarding Zelena, I'm beginning to think she's going to play a major role in the return to Storybrooke and she'll have to make a decision of being bad or being good.  We need her to remain the villian.

The Prankster has a somewhat educated guess regarding the premise of 6A but he could be completely wrong:  What would the world of OUAT be like if Regina had never placed the curse that resulted in the Storybrooke of Season One?  Would Storybrooke even exist?

They want us to assume that they had no inkling that the show would be renewed.  I think they did.  They're not releasing anything.  The premise (or what I assume) is that Henry and his Arthurian love travel to New York's SoHo district.  Gold is there, Regina and Emma show up.  They can't do a "no Storybrooke" because you wouldn't have the tie with Regina, Henry, and Emma.  I think they're going to do something with the Author development.

Note to LindaM—the Prankster noticed Rumple handling Pan’s pipes while he appeared to be musing over something.  Your earlier comment might be on the mark.

And I actually have a Peruvian version of Pan's pipes in my office.  A professor gave them to me.

[Merry Prankster]

Thank you Linda M.  The Prankster always appreciates your well-informed, thoughtful comments.  Outtie’s also.

As a preliminary matter you probably should be aware of something.  MP’s pool of ignorance regarding OUAT is far larger than his pool of knowledge.  He has seen most of Season One (still the best of what he has seen), brief snatches of Seasons 2, 3 and 4a, most of 4b, none of 5a and all of 5b.   For example, he never laid eyes on Dorothy in OUAT until the “Our Decay” episode.  He relies on you and Outtie to fill him in when necessary.

Now, in reaction to some of your comments:

Belle---In his often roundabout, convoluted way, MP was simply offering his opinion that Belle did not murder Gaston.  The Prankster has reflected on the remainder of your comment and he believes he has been too hard on Belle.  You are right, she is not a “goody two-shoes.”  MP actually began to like Belle for the first time during this episode.  It appears as if she is moving toward acceptance of Rumple as the Dark One, although there are certain to be many more bumps and potholes in the road ahead.  Are you certain that Belle did not return the dagger to Rumple?  MP could have sworn she did.  Perhaps MP had a senior moment.  Here’s a thought regarding how Belle knew of the dagger’s location.  In the previous episode Belle saw Rumple take the dagger from his inner coat pocket.  She might have assumed it was still there.

Zelena---MP would like Zelena to have an expanded role on OUAT going forward and agrees that she should remain a villain.  At present there are too many “goody two-shoes” (sorry, MP couldn’t resist) women running around Storybrooke playing hero.  Rumple is good but Storybrooke needs a resident female villain for balance.  Cora is by far the best villain but Zelena is an acceptable substitute.  If Dorothy was trapped in a necklace it must have happened during an episode the Prankster never saw (pool of ignorance).

Red---Prankster read a summary of the next episode and now realizes Red is still alive.  Apparently Mulan returns for the coming episode (the Prankster also missed her story arc).

Hades---MP really likes this guy.  He hopes Hades will have a recurring role on the series but first Hades needs to get his ticker jump-started.  Will Zelena supply the juice?  If the Underworld gig doesn’t work out Hades can pursue a career as a contracts attorney.

Season 6---It sounds as if MP didn’t just miss the bullseye, he missed the entire dartboard.

Pan’s Pipes----That is very cool, LindaM.

Regarding the writing on OUAT, the Prankster would like the opinions of you and Outtie:  Who are the best writers of the series

[Outlast]

MP, Dorothy appeared in 3.20 Kansas (with a slightly younger actress). She appeared, usurped Zelena's seat at the witches table (trust me you missed NOTHING there MP) and then she 'melted' Zelena, who only pretended to die. Then Zelena in the guise of the wizard gave Dorothy the magic slippers to return to Kansas (which the writers have said is 'fictional' Kansas, not Kansas in our world; Ok then) and that was the last we saw of Dorothy, until now.

I'm also pretty sure that Belle either returned the dagger or let Rumple take it from her hand.

IMO the two times Belle has taken the dagger to control Rumple have been the dumbest Belle moments in OUAT. Goody-two-shoes may sound a bit harsh, but I don't think MP was far off to call her that. It's definitely one of Belle's settings. It's great that she believes that good will always win and always wants to see the good in everybody, but once and awhile she needs to step back and accept that not everybody can be goodified overnight. Rumple and Gaston being two prime examples in this episode. She nearly got Rumple killed in 5.17 and she might well have gotten a lot of people killed in her land because she let the young ogre go home to report to it's people about what Gaston did to it.

I too enjoy Zelena as a villain, but I feel quite sure they are positioning her for redemption through babylove. I know I've said it too many times already, but I truly think that baby storyline was a serious mistake for all characters involved.

The last we saw of Red she and Mulan were paling around in Dunbroch (Merida's homeland). She left Storybrooke using a magic bean (why she was allowed to waste such a valuable bean instead of trying to grow more from it I don't know) and has been in Dunbroch/enchanted forest for I don't know... a year? I assume she's not dead since she came into underbrooke via a storm? instead of via death barge. But who can say.

Those Pan Pipes MUST be played at some point and I think it will bring forth the souls trapped in the river.

I believe Jane Espenson is generally considered the best writer. At the very least she's the only writer who gets mentioned by name a lot on podcasts and she certainly has written many of the best Once episodes...
That Still Small Voice
Desperate Souls
Skin Deep
Red-Handed
The Return
The Miller's Daughter
And from this season 'Devil's Due'. All very good episodes. Of course she's actually credited with a lot more episodes than these and not all of them are exactly winners.

[Merry Prankster]

Thanks Outtie.  The info. on Dorothy and Red was very helpful.

As the Prankster’s previous comments indicate, he waffles over his opinion of Belle.  He must be having a Zelena moment.  MP has decided to bite his tongue (it’s a small wonder he has any tongue left) on Belle and Rumbelle until he sees more on how the relationship plays out.

Baby Pomegranate is problematic for Zelena remaining a villain.  It can be sustained for a while by a tug-of-war between Zelena/Regina over custody.  If Zelena becomes “goodified” (nice word Outtie) Rumple will have to issue a call for reinforcements.

From the “you probably already know this” department:  Neal/Baelfire is co-starring in the new NBC series “Game of Silence.”  He plays a man deeply scarred by a teenage experience who has a propensity for violence and a desire for revenge.

[LindaM]

Most of the writers/executives on this show have experience with LOST.  I wasn't ready to commit to another show by these guys but actually got a 15 minute preview from, of all people, Evel Dick.  He and I have constantly had discussion wars and he knew I didn't think highly of some of his tactics but he contact me via FaceBook and told me to check the preview out.  He knew someone on the show.

Regarding Jane Eppeson.  She is a strong writer but I still hold Torchwood Miracle Day against her.  While I know Russell Davis and John Barrowman probably had a lot to do with the storyline (and the parts that really annoyed me), she didn't have to kill off the CIA agent that died.  Enough said.  Don't get me started. 

Belle is going to be the enigma of this show --- always wanting good but having to face bad.  While Emma is the savior, Belle doesn't have a defined role and that makes it hard.  She may not have the dagger.  I really don't remember but somehow she always gets it when she needs it.

Regarding the "River of Souls," I'm not sure what is going to happen there.  These are people who apparently can't get their act together and rectify the past.  Both of the peeps who have gone in have wishes that couldn't be fulfilled.  There was no hope except to stay in Otherworld Storybrooke.

Regarding Hades. I'm wondering if he comes through and dies.  Of course, I know they supposedly cast Zeus.  And how is the mental institute going to come into play?